Leadership Limbo

Manager Identity: When the Noise of the World Is Hard to Avoid

Episode Overview
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark take a different approach to leadership in uncertain times. Rather than offering immediate strategies or answers, they focus on something more foundational: the questions leaders must ask themselves when the world outside of work begins to shape what happens inside of it.
Framed by global instability, political tension, economic uncertainty, and the everyday realities teams are carrying into the workplace, the conversation explores the intersection between the external world and internal leadership responsibility. Leaders are not operating in a vacuum—and neither are the people they lead.
The core of the episode centers on surfacing the often unspoken questions leaders carry in these moments. What do I need right now to lead well? How do I balance empathy with accountability? What is my role in addressing external issues that impact my team? Where do I represent the institution, and where do I show up as myself? How much should I name, and how much should I move forward?
Rather than resolving these tensions, Josh and John emphasize that the real risk is not getting the answer wrong—it is failing to ask the question at all. When leaders avoid these internal questions, they default into reactive behaviors: over-functioning, avoidance, premature certainty, or shifting emotional burden onto others.
The episode ultimately reframes leadership in complex times as a practice of awareness before action. By slowing down and naming the questions beneath the surface, leaders create the conditions to respond with intention rather than react for relief.
This conversation sets up a continuation, where the focus will shift from the questions leaders must ask to the practical ways they can navigate and respond to them.
Timestamped Chapters
00:00 – Welcome Back and Setting the ContextRe-entry after a short break and framing the intensity of the current moment.
04:00 – The World Showing Up at WorkWhy leadership cannot ignore geopolitical, economic, and social realities.
09:00 – Helplessness and the Limits of ControlNaming the feeling of not being able to influence large-scale events.
13:00 – What Leaders Carry InternallyHow unprocessed thoughts and emotions shape leadership behavior.
17:00 – Question 1: What Do I Need Right Now?Grounding yourself before attempting to lead others.
21:00 – Question 2: Empathy vs. AccountabilityBalancing care for people with the need to continue the work.
26:00 – Question 3: Politics, Institutions, and Leadership IdentityNavigating external issues while representing an organization.
31:00 – Question 4: What Do I Name vs. Move Forward From?Deciding when to acknowledge and when to proceed.
34:00 – What Can I Actually Do?Shifting from helplessness to intentional action.
36:00 – Closing and Looking AheadFraming next episode: moving from questions to strategies.
Key Takeaways
Leadership in uncertain times starts with awareness, not answers.
Unasked questions often lead to reactive leadership behaviors.
Leaders must balance personal identity, team needs, and institutional responsibility.
Empathy without boundaries can become over-functioning; avoidance can become disengagement.
Not everything must be addressed, but ignoring everything creates disconnection.
The question “what can I do?” shifts leaders from helplessness to action.
Strong leadership requires choosing response over reaction.
Listener Homework
Take 10 minutes this week to write down the questions you have been avoiding. Not the answers—the questions. What is creating tension for you right now at the intersection of the world and your work? Where do you feel unclear, conflicted, or reactive?
Choose one of those questions and sit with it. Don’t rush to solve it. Notice how simply naming it changes how you show up. Leadership begins by asking better questions, not by forcing faster answers.

Manager Identity: Navigating Ambiguity — How Leaders Respond, Not React

Episode Overview
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark return to one of the most defining realities of leadership: ambiguity. Rather than treating uncertainty as something to escape, they challenge leaders—especially middle managers—to see it as the very condition that requires leadership in the first place.
The conversation reframes ambiguity as more than just uncertainty. It often shows up as complexity, chaos, or competing priorities that lack clear answers. For middle managers, this tension is amplified as they sit between direction from above and responsibility to execute below—often without full clarity in either direction.
A key shift explored in this episode is moving from reacting to ambiguity to responding to it. Reactive leadership shows up as over-functioning, avoidance, or premature certainty. Responsive leadership, on the other hand, requires self-awareness, clarity of principles, and the ability to stay grounded even when pressure rises. This is where the concept of self-differentiation becomes essential—leaders who can remain steady without collapsing under stress or overcompensating to control outcomes.
Josh and John also emphasize that ambiguity is not something to “get through,” but something to learn from. Leaders who slow down enough to sit in uncertainty—rather than rush past it—gain deeper insight into themselves, their teams, and the situation at hand.
From there, the episode moves into practical ways to lead through ambiguity. Naming uncertainty openly creates clarity and trust. Establishing clear roles and decision rights reduces confusion. Building a culture of feedback, shared language, and real conversations ensures teams can move forward even without perfect answers. And importantly, practicing these behaviors before pressure hits helps teams respond more effectively when it does.
The conversation ultimately lands on a simple but challenging truth: leadership is not about eliminating ambiguity—it is about developing the capacity to lead within it.
Timestamped Chapters
00:00 – Opening and Podcast SetupLight intro and framing the return to ambiguity as a core leadership theme.
03:30 – What Ambiguity Really IsDefining ambiguity, complexity, and chaos—and how they show up in leadership.
06:00 – Why Leaders Struggle with UncertaintyThe instinct to rush to clarity versus learning to sit in the unknown.
09:00 – The Unique Pressure on Middle ManagersLeading with incomplete information while still driving execution.
12:30 – Respond vs. ReactSelf-differentiation and how leaders avoid over-functioning, avoidance, or control.
18:00 – Naming Ambiguity to Create ClarityWhy acknowledging uncertainty builds trust and alignment.
25:00 – Building Systems That Reduce ConfusionRoles, decision rights, and creating structure inside ambiguity.
30:00 – Culture, Feedback, and CommunicationHow shared language and real conversations help teams navigate uncertainty.
36:00 – Practicing Leadership Before It’s NeededBuilding muscle memory so teams are ready when ambiguity hits.
39:00 – Closing Reflections and ApplicationWhy ambiguity is not something to escape—but something to use.
Key Takeaways
Ambiguity is not a temporary phase—it is a constant condition of leadership.
Strong leaders respond to uncertainty with intention rather than reacting emotionally.
Self-differentiation allows leaders to stay grounded under pressure without overcorrecting.
Naming ambiguity openly creates alignment and reduces hidden tension.
Clear roles and decision rights eliminate unnecessary confusion.
A culture of feedback and shared language strengthens teams in uncertain moments.
The best leaders don’t avoid ambiguity—they build the capacity to lead through it.
Listener Homework
Choose one situation this week where you feel unclear, uncertain, or under pressure. Instead of rushing to solve it, pause and name the ambiguity—first for yourself, then for your team if appropriate. Ask: what do we know, what don’t we know, and what principles will guide us forward? Practice responding with intention rather than reacting for relief.
Resources Referenced
Concept of self-differentiated leadership (Bowen Family Systems)Failure of Nerve (Edwin Friedman)

Leadership Limbo Conversations: Dr. Aaron Griffen on Leading in the Midst of It All

Episode Overview
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark sit down with Dr. Aaron J. Griffen, Chief Student Affairs Officer at DSST Public Schools, to explore what it truly means to lead in complexity, chaos, and cultural tension. Drawing from over two decades in education—as well as his work as co-editor of Leading in the Midst of It All—Dr. Griffen offers a grounded, experience-driven perspective on leadership that extends far beyond schools.
The conversation begins with Dr. Griffen’s early entry into leadership, sparked not by ambition for title, but by frustration with curriculum that failed to reflect the lived experiences of his students. That moment shaped a leadership philosophy centered on relevance, connection, and cultural awareness—principles that translate directly into any organizational context. Whether in education or business, leaders must make their “curriculum” meaningful to the people they serve, or risk disengagement and disconnection.
As the discussion deepens, Dr. Griffen reflects on his experience leading through COVID-19 and a period of national racial reckoning. These overlapping crises revealed a fundamental truth: leadership is forged in moments of uncertainty, not stability. When systems broke down, educators were forced to respond without clear guidance, navigating issues ranging from digital access and food insecurity to racial trauma and community trust. In these moments, leadership became less about control and more about responsiveness, humility, and shared problem-solving.
A central theme of the episode is the danger of “hero leadership.” Dr. Griffen challenges leaders to resist the instinct to solve problems for others, particularly in moments of crisis. Instead, effective leadership requires listening, curiosity, and collaboration. Leaders must create space for others to exercise agency, contribute solutions, and grow into leadership themselves.
The conversation also explores the relationship between ambiguity and leadership. Dr. Griffen offers a powerful reframing: leadership does not create the moment—the moment creates the leader. In times of chaos, strong leaders adapt by recognizing when to step forward, when to step back, and when to elevate others. They embrace discomfort, remain grounded in their values, and are willing to be wrong in service of progress.
The episode closes with a reflection on leadership presence, as Dr. Griffen shares the lasting influence of a mentor who embodied confidence, clarity, and service. That presence—rooted in both competence and care—continues to shape how he leads today.
Chapters
00:00 – Introduction and Welcoming Dr. Aaron GriffenOpening conversation and overview of Dr. Griffen’s background and leadership journey.
09:00 – From Curriculum to Leadership PurposeHow early experiences with misaligned curriculum shaped a commitment to relevance and engagement.
18:00 – Transforming School Culture Through LeadershipLessons from leading a high school through instability, turnover, and cultural change.
25:00 – Relevance, Culture, and Organizational “Curriculum”Connecting educational practices to broader leadership and organizational development.
32:00 – Leading Through COVID and Racial ReckoningNavigating multiple crises and redefining leadership in real time.
44:00 – Avoiding Hero Leadership and Building AgencyWhy listening, curiosity, and collaboration outperform control and saviorism.
52:00 – Leadership in Ambiguity and ChaosHow strong leaders adapt, empower others, and grow through uncertainty.
01:03:00 – Leadership Influence and Final ReflectionsThe impact of mentorship and the importance of leadership presence.
Key Takeaways
Leadership is shaped by context; difficult moments reveal and develop true leadership capacity.
Relevance drives engagement—whether in classrooms or organizations.
Strong leaders resist the urge to “save” others and instead build agency through listening and collaboration.
Ambiguity is not something to eliminate; it is the condition that requires leadership.
Effective leaders know when to step forward, step back, and elevate others.
Crisis exposes both system gaps and leadership opportunities.
Leadership presence is built through consistency, confidence, and service to others.
 
Resources Referenced
Leading in the Midst of It All: Surviving and Thriving Through COVID-19 and Racial Reckonings (Alexander, Griffen A., Williams, Griffen K.)

Manager Identity: Ambiguity Is Where Leadership Happens

Episode Overview
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark explore one of the most defining — and uncomfortable — realities of leadership: ambiguity. Framed by a listener suggestion and grounded in real-world leadership experiences, the conversation centers on what it actually means to lead when clarity is limited, direction is evolving, and certainty is out of reach.
Rather than treating ambiguity as a problem to solve, Josh and John position it as the environment in which leadership truly exists. Whether it’s navigating shifting priorities, incomplete information, competing perspectives, or unclear ownership, ambiguity is not a failure of leadership — it is the condition that requires it.
The episode breaks down different forms of ambiguity, from moments where there is genuinely no clear answer to situations where competing voices are equally confident in different paths forward. The discussion highlights how leaders often unintentionally increase ambiguity through lack of clarity, shifting principles, or avoidance of difficult decisions.
A key tension explored is the emotional and psychological weight of ambiguity. Leaders are not only managing uncertainty themselves, but also absorbing and translating that uncertainty for their teams. This creates a layered challenge, particularly for middle managers who sit between executive decisions and frontline realities.
Josh and John introduce the Stockdale Paradox as a powerful framing tool — the ability to acknowledge the full difficulty of a situation while maintaining confidence that a path forward exists. This balance becomes essential for leaders trying to communicate honestly without creating panic.
Ultimately, the episode reinforces a core idea: ambiguity cannot be eliminated, but it can be named, understood, and navigated with intention. Leadership is less about providing answers and more about guiding people through the space between not knowing and moving forward anyway.
Timestamped Chapters
00:00 – Opening and Framing the Conversation on AmbiguityIntroduction to the topic and listener inspiration.
05:00 – What Is Ambiguity in Leadership?Defining ambiguity and exploring real-world examples.
10:00 – When Certainty Creates AmbiguityHow competing confident perspectives create complexity.
15:00 – Why Ambiguity Shows Up in LeadershipChange, incomplete information, and the nature of decision-making.
20:00 – The Role of Leadership in UncertaintyWhy ambiguity is the condition that requires leadership.
25:00 – The Middle Manager ChallengeNavigating ambiguity both from above and below.
30:00 – Leading Others Through AmbiguityBalancing honesty, confidence, and emotional stability.
35:00 – The Stockdale Paradox and Naming RealityHolding tension between difficulty and hope.
40:00 – Closing Reflections and HomeworkPreparing for deeper strategies in the next episode.
Key Takeaways
Ambiguity is not a leadership failure; it is the environment where leadership is required.
Leaders often increase ambiguity by avoiding clarity, ownership, or difficult decisions.
Uncertainty exists both in the absence of information and in the presence of competing certainty.
Middle managers experience amplified ambiguity as it flows through the organization.
Effective leadership requires acknowledging uncertainty without creating instability.
The ability to hold tension — difficulty and hope at the same time — is a core leadership skill.
Naming ambiguity is the first step to navigating it.
Listener Homework
Pause and identify where you are currently experiencing ambiguity in your leadership or work. Name it directly. Instead of trying to immediately solve it, sit with it and recognize the tension between what you know and what you don’t. Consider how that ambiguity is impacting your decisions, your communication, and your team. Awareness is the first step toward leading through it.
Resources Referenced
The Stockdale Paradox Bill Kurtz Substack on leadership and courageBrené Brown concept of “name it to tame it”

Leadership Limbo Conversations: David Boelens, Integrated Talent Development at Raytheon

 
Episode Overview
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark sit down with David Boelens, leader of the Integrated Talent Development organization at Raytheon, to explore what it really takes to develop leaders at scale. Drawing on his experience as a U.S. Army cavalry officer and now as a leader responsible for developing thousands of professionals in operations, supply chain, and quality roles, David shares lessons about leadership that translate across both military and corporate environments.
The conversation begins with David reflecting on his early leadership experiences in the Army, including platoon leadership during a deployment to Iraq. Those experiences shaped a philosophy that still guides his leadership today: you cannot afford not to invest deeply in developing people. Leaders must be willing to allow learning, mistakes, and growth because the lessons gained in lower-risk moments often become critical later.
From there, the discussion shifts into leadership development inside large organizations. David introduces the concept of leader intent, a military principle that focuses less on dictating every step and more on clearly defining the outcome and the purpose behind it. When people understand the “why” behind the mission, they can adapt, take initiative, and solve problems without waiting for direction.
David also shares how his team approaches talent development systems inside a large organization. Effective development programs must balance three priorities: they must be personal, scalable, and sustainable. Programs often fail when leaders optimize them for administrators rather than the people and managers who must interact with them.
The conversation closes with practical insights on developing early-career leaders. One of the most common challenges David sees is hesitation to speak up or contribute ideas. Strong leadership development creates safe opportunities for people to practice initiative—whether through networking, experiential learning, or ownership of their own development path.
Throughout the episode, the central message remains consistent: great leadership development is not about controlling outcomes or handing people the answers. It is about creating environments where people take ownership, develop confidence, and grow their leadership muscles through real responsibility.
Timestamped Chapters
00:00 – Opening Banter and Introducing David BoelensJosh and John introduce the episode and welcome David, leader of Raytheon’s Integrated Talent Development organization.
05:00 – Military Leadership and the Reality of Learning Through ExperienceDavid reflects on leading soldiers early in his career and how real-world responsibility shapes leadership.
12:00 – Lessons from Combat LeadershipA story about initiative and learning under pressure illustrates how small leadership lessons become critical later.
20:00 – Leader Intent: A Military Principle for Modern LeadershipWhy defining the outcome and purpose is more powerful than micromanaging execution.
28:00 – Building Talent Development Systems at ScaleBalancing personal development with scalable and sustainable learning systems.
36:00 – Ownership vs. Spoon-Feeding DevelopmentWhy leaders must resist solving every problem and instead require people to own their growth.
44:00 – Developing Early Career LeadersHelping younger professionals find their voice and confidence to contribute.
47:00 – Leadership Inspiration and Final ReflectionsDavid shares leadership influences including Colin Powell and Abraham Lincoln.
Key Takeaways
Leadership development requires investing deeply in people long before the stakes are high.
Clear leader intent enables initiative and adaptability instead of dependence.
Development systems must balance personal relevance with scalability and sustainability.
Ownership is a critical leadership muscle and must be practiced, not taught theoretically.
Early career leaders often need encouragement and structure to speak up and contribute.
Great leaders create environments where people can practice initiative safely.
Leadership growth happens through experience, responsibility, and reflection.
Listener Reflection
Where in your leadership are you unintentionally taking ownership away from others? Identify one area this week where you can clarify the outcome you want while leaving space for your team to determine how to achieve it. Leadership development grows when responsibility shifts from the leader to the people being developed.

Influence: Accidental Diminishers and 9 Habits That Undermine Your Leadership

Episode Overview
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John build on recent conversations about presence, influence, and accountability by introducing a powerful leadership contrast from Liz Wiseman’s book Multipliers: the difference between Multipliers and Diminishers.
While overtly destructive leadership behaviors are easy to spot, this conversation focuses on something more subtle — the Accidental Diminisher. These are leaders with good intentions who unknowingly over-function, over-direct, over-protect, or over-communicate in ways that limit their team’s ownership and growth.
The episode begins by grounding listeners in the concept of over-functioning — stepping in too quickly, solving too much, and unintentionally creating dependency. From there, Josh and John walk through nine accidental diminisher tendencies, including the Rescuer, Idea Fountain, Rapid Responder, Optimist, Strategist, Perfectionist, Protector, Pace Setter, and Always On leader.
Rather than shaming these tendencies, the conversation reframes them as anxiety-driven postures that often show up under pressure. When stress rises, leaders default to familiar patterns — rescuing instead of empowering, answering instead of asking, pushing pace instead of developing capacity.
The through-line is clear: leadership is not about doing more. It is about multiplying others. When leaders dominate space, control outcomes, or protect too much, they unintentionally shrink the very people they are meant to develop.
This episode invites middle managers to examine their own default tendencies and make intentional adjustments that create more ownership, more debate, and more growth across their teams.
Timestamped Chapters
00:00 – Coffee Mugs and Reconnecting to PresenceLight opening before transitioning back to leadership themes.
05:00 – Introducing Multipliers vs. DiminishersThe core framework from Liz Wiseman’s research.
08:30 – Over-Functioning ExplainedWhy leaders do too much and how it creates dependency.
12:30 – The Rescuer, Idea Fountain, and Rapid ResponderHow good intentions quietly limit team ownership.
22:00 – The Optimist and StrategistWhen positivity and certainty suppress debate and innovation.
27:00 – The Perfectionist and ProtectorHigh standards and shielding behaviors that discourage growth.
32:00 – Pace Setter and Always On LeadershipHow intensity and presence can crowd out others.
36:00 – Homework and ReflectionIdentifying your dominant accidental diminisher tendency.
Key Takeaways
Most diminishing leadership habits stem from good intentions, not bad motives.
Over-functioning creates under-functioning in others.
Rescuing, over-responding, or over-directing may feel helpful but often reduce ownership.
High standards are healthy; perfectionism that removes autonomy is not.
Moving fast is not the same as developing others.
Multiplying leadership requires space, patience, and disciplined restraint.
Under pressure, your default tendencies are amplified — awareness is essential.
Listener Homework
Identify which of the nine accidental diminisher tendencies resonates most with you. Be honest. Notice when it shows up — especially under stress or urgency. Then choose one small behavioral adjustment to practice this week. You might wait before responding, speak last in a meeting, resist rescuing, or invite debate before deciding.
Leadership multiplication begins not by adding more techniques, but by subtracting habits that shrink others.
Resources Referenced
Multipliers by Liz WisemanThe Wiseman Group (wisemangroup.com)

Leadership Limbo Conversations: Dr. Brandi Chin, Author of Hope is Not a Strategy

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John sit down with Dr. Brandi Nicole Chin to explore one of leadership’s most avoided but essential responsibilities: accountability. Drawing from her book Hope Is Not a Strategy, Brandi makes a compelling case that strong intentions and motivational language are not enough to produce consistent, high-quality results.
Hope matters. It is human and necessary. But as Brandi explains, hope without systems creates uneven performance, pockets of excellence, and persistent gaps. Leaders often assume shared standards without clearly defining them. The result is inconsistency—and inconsistency erodes trust.
Dr. Chin challenges leaders to move from aspiration to operational clarity. Values like excellence, respect, and equity only shape culture when they are translated into observable behaviors and reinforced consistently. When expectations are vague, accountability feels personal or punitive. When expectations are clear and upheld, accountability becomes cultural and developmental.
The conversation also addresses resistance. Pushback against accountability is rarely about defiance; it is often rooted in fear—fear of failure, exposure, or loss of autonomy. Effective leaders respond not with punishment, but with consistency, coaching, and steady reinforcement of shared standards.
This episode serves as both a conversation and an invitation. If you are serious about improving quality, building trust, and strengthening consistency in your organization, Dr. Chin’s work offers a practical roadmap. You can learn more about her book, consulting, and leadership resources at brandichin.com.
Timestamped Chapters
00:00 – Introducing Dr. Brandi Chin and the Accountability ConversationWhy this topic matters for leaders today.
06:00 – Hope vs. SystemsThe danger of relying on intention without operational clarity.
14:30 – Translating Values into ActionHow to turn aspirational language into measurable behaviors.
26:00 – Follow-Through and ConsistencyWhy reinforcement defines leadership credibility.
37:00 – Resistance and FearUnderstanding pushback and responding with steadiness.
45:00 – Accountability as the Path to QualityWhy consistency separates average organizations from excellent ones.
Listener Reflection
Where are you relying on hope instead of clarity? Identify one expectation that needs stronger definition and follow-through this week. If this conversation resonated, explore Dr. Brandi Nicole Chin’s work at brandichin.com and consider how her framework could strengthen accountability in your organization.

Leadership Presence: Barriers and Strategies

Episode Summary:
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John continue their series on leadership presence by shifting from definition to diagnosis. After exploring what presence is, they now examine what disrupts it. Drawing from systems theory, personal leadership stories, and practical workplace examples, they unpack the subtle forces that pull leaders out of connection and into reactivity.
The core insight is simple: presence is not something you add on. It emerges when you remove what is getting in the way. Josh reintroduces the concept of de-envelopment—a term Andrew Robinson brought into conversation—challenging leaders to strip away reactive habits rather than stack new techniques. When anxiety rises in meetings, conflict, or uncertainty, leaders default into predictable postures. Some over-function, over-explain, and hustle for affirmation. Others defer too quickly, distance themselves from decisions, or avoid discomfort. Still others push agendas forcefully, mistaking control for confidence.
Throughout the episode, these patterns are connected to real leadership moments: rescuing instead of empowering, over-talking to secure credibility, withdrawing under pressure, or bulldozing conversations in the name of decisiveness. Each response is understandable, but each reduces presence and erodes trust.
The conversation also names practical barriers such as distraction, physical absence, tone, lack of preparation, and disorganization. Presence is both internal and external. It requires emotional regulation and self-awareness, but also visible engagement and structured leadership behavior.
The episode closes with practical strategies for cultivating presence in daily leadership: speaking last, limiting airtime, repairing strained relationships early, structuring meetings around learning, and embracing silence. Presence, they remind listeners, is not mystical. It is disciplined, relational, and built through consistent practice.

Manager Identity: The Power of Presence

Episode Overview:
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John explore one of the most essential yet misunderstood leadership capacities: presence. Moving beyond the idea of executive polish or charisma, they reframe presence as the ability to create safety, clarity, and forward movement simply by how a leader shows up with others.
The conversation builds on recent discussions about influence, self-preservation, and development, grounding the idea of presence in lived experience rather than theory. Josh introduces a powerful reflection from poet and philosopher David Whyte, connecting presence to gravity and mass—the idea that true presence slows time, opens possibility, and invites others toward deeper engagement rather than resistance.
John and Josh unpack how presence shows up in everyday leadership moments: listening without rushing to respond, resisting the urge to fix or dominate, and creating space for others to step forward at their own pace. Through a personal story about parenting and coaching, John illustrates how walls of self-preservation—fear, ego, and the need to prove something—can block presence, and how removing those walls creates growth and confidence.
The episode also clarifies what presence is not. It is not positional authority, charisma without care, physical proximity without intention, or oversharing personal struggle in ways that burden others. Presence is not paralysis or endless collaboration, nor is it speed for the sake of productivity. Instead, presence is grounded, curious, and disciplined. It allows leaders to listen deeply, make decisions confidently, and move teams forward together.
The conversation closes by emphasizing that presence is not a switch you flip, but a continual internal practice. In a culture that rewards constant motion and urgency, choosing presence is countercultural work. Leaders who cultivate it slow time for others, reduce unnecessary friction, and create the conditions for trust, development, and meaningful progress.
Timestamped Chapters:
00:00 – Welcome and Framing the ConversationJosh and John set the stage for a deeper exploration of leadership presence and why it matters now.
03:15 – Influence, Self-Preservation, and a Personal Leadership StoryA reflection on walls of self-preservation and how fear and ego show up in leadership and parenting.
09:45 – Defining Presence and Why It Changes EverythingIntroducing presence as gravity that slows time and invites others toward growth.
13:30 – Presence, Time, and the Work of Deep ListeningExploring how presence creates flow, reduces tension, and accelerates real progress.
18:45 – What Presence Is NotClarifying common misconceptions around charisma, authority, visibility, and oversharing.
32:00 – Presence in Meetings, Decisions, and Daily LeadershipWhy meetings, priorities, and one-to-ones either create presence or quietly destroy it.
44:00 – Reflection and HomeworkPractical guidance for becoming more present with priorities or people this week.
Listener Homework:
This week, identify one place where your presence matters most right now. It may be a key priority that needs focused attention, or a person who needs deeper listening and understanding. Choose one and be deliberate. Slow yourself down. Ask better questions. Notice whether time feels different—whether tension eases, clarity increases, or progress accelerates. That shift is your signal that presence is taking root.
Resources Referenced:
David Whyte, Time and ConsolationsDavid Brooks, How to Know a PersonLeadership Limbo frameworks on presence, influence, and developing others

The Management Paradigm Is Broken: A New Way Forward with Andrew Robinson

Summary
In this episode of Leadership Limbo, hosts Josh Hugo and John Clark engage with Andrew Robinson, a leader in organizational development, to explore the limitations of traditional management practices and the need for a shift towards a development mindset. Andrew discusses his new venture, Oxygen, which aims to create sustainable leadership development systems that empower individuals and organizations to thrive. The conversation delves into the etymology of management, the impact of AI on leadership, and practical steps leaders can take to foster growth and presence within their teams.
Read more about Andrew's work at www.andrewfrobinson.com and read his work at https://andrewfrobinson.substack.com/ and be sure to follow his exciting new venture, Oxygen!
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo03:17 Introducing Andrew Robinson and His Work04:50 The Launch of Oxygen: A New Approach to Leadership Development08:24 Challenging the Management Mindset19:15 The Etymology of Management and Its Implications29:05 The Intersection of AI and Human Development30:17 Practical Applications of Oxygen's Approach34:31 Questions for Leaders to Reflect On39:11 Final Thoughts and Reflections
Keywords
leadership, management, development, organizational growth, self-awareness, presence, human potential, leadership mindset, Oxygen, Andrew Robinson